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Podcast → Episode No. 2

What the Behavior Gap Teaches Us About Better Financial Planning

With Carl Richards, CFP®

September 24, 2025

Featuring

Carl Richards, CFP® Headshot
Carl Richards, CFP®

Creator of the Behavior Gap

When I sat down with Carl Richards for this episode of Behind the Advisor, one thing stood out: a financial planning process doesn’t have to be complicated to be effective.

The conversation traces an unconventional path into financial planning—starting with a bouncer job interview that unexpectedly led into the securities industry. From there, what emerged is a career built on clarity, creativity, and a deep commitment to making financial advice understandable.

At the center is a planning process that’s equal parts structured and human. From the very first meeting to final plan delivery, it’s designed to strip away complexity, spark better conversations, and keep clients engaged. Along the way, we talk about how art, storytelling, and even mistakes can become powerful tools in an advisor’s toolkit.

If you’re rethinking how you deliver planning, here are a few takeaways from the conversation:

  • Keep it simple. Clients connect with clarity, not jargon.

  • Use creativity. Sometimes drawings, metaphors, or stories can unlock what data alone can’t.

  • Focus on the journey. A well-designed process builds confidence long before the plan is delivered.

This episode takes an inside look at how to make financial planning resonate and why the simplest approach often has the biggest impact.

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00:00:01 - 00:01:02
welcome to xypn radio where your host Alan Moore brings you into a community of Fe only financial planners who want to profitably and successfully serve Gen X and geny clients if you're ready to get the knowledge you need from leaders in your field learn from Forward Thinking advisors and take action on your own goals xypn radio is the show for you here's your host hello everyone and welcome to this episode of xypn radio I am your host Alan Moore and I am so thankful and excited that you have
 
 
00:00:32 - 00:01:42
joined us today as you know we are in launch week so we are featuring episodes all week with folks such as Michael kitus Sophia Bara Mark Mau Jeff Rose Eric Roberge and Jake Keebler so this is an exciting week of just tons of great content but today we are featuring none other than Carl Richards author of The behavior Gap now Carl as you may or may not know has had a fascinating path in financial planning including how he actually got into kind of the Securities industry because he was actually
 
 
00:01:07 - 00:02:09
applying for a security job thinking he was going to be a bouncer um and so today's interview actually goes through his path of becoming a financial planner and then how he ended up becoming an author and then an artist with absolutely no art background this interview is really wide- ranging but we spent a lot of time focusing on his financial planning process from introductory meeting all the way through planed delivery you really want to listen in all the way through this episode because I don't think you can
 
 
00:01:38 - 00:02:41
ever walk away from talking to Carl without learning something that's going to positively impact your business and this is really a look under the hood of how Carl Richards provides financial planning now before we kick off the interview I want to thank our launch week sponsored low load Insurance Services low load provides life disability annuity long-term care Insurance Services to the clients of fee only advisors so if you're looking for an insurance company that can handle all of the needs of your clients llis is the
 
 
00:02:10 - 00:03:18
place to go and definitely check out episode five for an in-depth interview with Mark Mau the CEO of llis hello everyone and welcome to this episode of xyp and radio I am so excited to have our guest today on it is Carl Richards author of The behavior Gap I have known Carl for I guess really since I got into the profession have been watching his work and just love getting the opportunity to to chat with him at conferences and things like that so Carl thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show today really uh genuinely
 
 
00:02:45 - 00:03:36
I know everybody always says this thanks for having me but genuinely excited looking forward to it you know you have such a unique Story I mean you really do from kind of I guess not even being an adviser which we can talk about all the way through being a financial adviser to now kind of being the coach of advisor so could you just give us a quick background on kind of where you came from and how you came to be the behavior Gap yes it's hard to tell that story without starting at the beginning so
 
 
00:03:10 - 00:04:00
I'll try and make it quick and I'm sure some people have heard the story because I tell it everywhere I go my wife's so sick of it but early on I was an undergrad at the University of Utah I was an Undeclared major I had no idea what I want to do with my life and one day we were looking through the newspaper and we found you know for a job for like the evenings or whatever so I could go a school full-time and we found what we were sure was a security it said something about security you
 
 
00:03:35 - 00:04:29
know and I thought but you know bouncer Mall Cop like flexibility cool I'll do this at night and I can still go to school I go to apply for the job make a long story short about halfway through the interview I found out it wasn't about security the word in the ad was secures not security and I didn't know the difference and you know it tells you a little bit about the applicant pool that day that I made it through the interview and that was sort of I mean I'm shortening it a bunch but that was
 
 
00:04:02 - 00:05:07
kind of how I got in the industry quite by accident and but quickly really quickly I had this experience where I realized and I've had it almost daily since where I realized that this wasn't this business that I thought was about numbers and spreadsheets wasn't about that at all that it was about and so I got in the industry by accident but I stayed on purpose because I realized wow this isn't about numbers and spreadsheets it's about emotion and fear and greed and worry and dreams and you know the
 
 
00:04:34 - 00:05:33
stuff that keeps people up at night like I actually thought I wanted to be an organizational behavior guy like I I grew up in the sort of Steven cvy part of the country and in that era and I thought how cool to help people figure out their work and then you know through this accidental discovery of money I realized like there's no better way to help people live more aligned lives than helping them get clear about their relationship with money like even more important than their relationship with
 
 
00:05:04 - 00:06:06
their profession would be their relationship with money so that's that's how I got into the business and that's the reason why I stayed and you know like the the short version of the how did you get where you are now story is is just really honestly it was I started having this repeated experience which I bet everybody listening to this can relate to you I'm sure you've all had it right so imagine a conference room table with two people a couple that you care about in almost an unusual way because
 
 
00:05:35 - 00:06:32
they've shared things with you that they've probably shared with no one else their fears and their dreams they've probably cried in your office and they're there trying to make a really important decision about money and your job is to educate them and you think there's this so that they can make the right decision right or at least they can trust you to help to take your advice and maybe there's this critical issue this piece of information that you think they have to understand in order
 
 
00:06:04 - 00:06:58
to make this decision and so you're trying to you're trying to explain it to them right so just imagine yourself in that situation and if you're like me and you're like almost every adviser I've ever talked to you've had the experience where you're doing your best these are smart intelligent people so it's not their fault but you're doing your best and all you're getting is blank stairs and I had that moment where I was like oh my gosh what am I going to do
 
 
00:06:30 - 00:07:42
and I out of an act of desperation I said no like this and I stood up at the Whiteboard and I drew and if I remember right it was an estate planning or insurance thing and I just drew a couple simple boxes with arrows and I said no the money will go you know from here to here and they said oh I get it right I get it I understand now that experience was singular in terms of its impact on my like like wait a second what if I just did that with every concept that I couldn't figure out how to help people understand standard
 
 
00:07:06 - 00:08:02
deviation asset allocation tax impact you know all the emotional behavioral stuff what if I just did that every with all of them and I started putting them up on this little website and one thing grew to another and I got an invite to do it for a you know a large newspaper and I knew from my security guard background to say yes to that and right and and and one thing grew to another and to the point where I was like well I I want to do this more often I want to help real advisers around the country
 
 
00:07:35 - 00:08:30
get better at having those kind of discussions now Carl you're being modest because big newspaper being the New York Times uh with a weekly column there which is just fantastic exposure for for not only you know the work that you're doing but what real financial planning is and I think that that's a struggle we experience in the profession as a general is just telling people what is it exactly that we do and having met you in person quite a few times I would say that I'm thankful that you are in the
 
 
00:08:02 - 00:08:57
financial planning profession and not the bouncer profession cuz I'm not sure how long you would have lasted I'm not sure how to take that but I'll take it thank very much um Carl is a very very fit guy he's just not six7 and you know 250 pounds of of solid muscle sure for sure you know and and you you relate that story sitting there with your client and I think we've as you said I think we've all been there I mean I remember uh the first time a client threw something in my office and
 
 
00:08:30 - 00:09:26
I was actually an intern at the time working with a a firm and uh just clear across the room and I remember thinking like is this what real financial planning is yeah because what do they teach us in college that you know in the cfp program we never talk about this stuff we only talk about the numbers and you can't respond to something being thrown or tears or emotion with with data I mean I'm assuming you see that all the time from advisers that they try to respond to these situations with
 
 
00:08:57 - 00:09:53
information no it's so it's such an important point like I actually it's interesting I was just having this conversation with somebody yesterday who his brother went to Seminary to become uh can't remember what exact religion it was but I it was just a a sort of a Christian pastor and he said you know I know he his brother was commenting like I know the bible really really well and then I get out to be a pastor and I realize oh my gosh it's not about the Bible right it's about counseling and
 
 
00:09:26 - 00:10:19
comforting and nobody taught me any of that and I think that's sort of the same thing we get into this situation where we're like I and I I naively like expected oh all I have to do like when I when I first read about this thing that I kind of labeled the behavior Gap the difference between investment return and investor return to pick on one easy subject I thought oh wow nobody else probably knows this I all I have to do is go and educate people and so I started throwing facts and figures at it
 
 
00:09:52 - 00:10:40
and then you realize real quickly and you could take any one of the things we're talking you know education funding I mean how many times have I been in a room where I bring up educa like okay let's talk a little bit about the kids what was your goal goal is there how do you want to approach education funding and one spouse will say something and this I mean it seems education funding to be one of the hot ones that it happens more often than not where one spouse will say I worked my way through
 
 
00:10:17 - 00:11:12
school these kids are going to work their way through school it was the most valuable lesson I ever got and the other spouse will be like what really I like I was prepared I I thought we were prepared to pay for any college they got into and you're like wait a second is this the first time you guys have had this discussion like right here so I think this idea of throwing facts and figures which is sort of all we've been trained to do you're trying to throw rational facts and figures at an
 
 
00:10:44 - 00:12:00
irrational response to something and if you want to know how well that works just try it with a teenager right like try trying to reason through an irrational decision they're making you'll learn real quickly that doesn't work what works is empathy and trust and listening right asking really great questions to draw more answers out and and the interesting piece back to what you said about real Financial Planning and not knowing what it is is most I could almost say almost all prospective clients don't know that
 
 
00:11:22 - 00:12:26
that's what they want right they don't walk in saying help me get clear about my life's goals and values walk in typically with an acute problem right like I've got this pool of money I've got to invest or I need help with budgeting or we got to figure out how to get serious about education funding and you have to figure out how to carefully take it from that one acute problem to this broad underlying discussion of values and goals so that you can correctly diagnose and then prescribe
 
 
00:11:54 - 00:12:48
right and I think that's a skill that nobody is talking about and we are all running into it and be it's becoming I think it's actually becoming critical like if you want to stay in the business you're going to have to figure out how to become better at asking good questions listening carefully diagnosing thoroughly before you prescribe where do you think people can go to get this education because I was actually very fortunate that my college cfp program actually had a Communications course
 
 
00:12:21 - 00:13:14
because we had a financial planning Professor with a background in Psychology but there's only a couple programs out there that even have that so where do you send folks a say Carl I want to learn how to talk to people I mean honestly I want to learn the soft side of what we do the important I shouldn't say soft skills I hate that term but the important part of what we do to be able to talk to clients where do you send them for that type of Education and Training that's a great question I mean first is to comment like
 
 
00:12:47 - 00:13:46
I I don't think it's the soft side I don't think it's just the important side I think it's actually becoming the singular critical element right because everything else is going away if you haven't figured that out yet you better figure it out quickly right like asset allocation portfolio design even some tax management issues like all of that stuff's going away what what's going to remain at the end of the day about being a human advisor sort of real Financial advice real financial planning what's
 
 
00:13:16 - 00:14:18
going to remain is that unique little spot between helping people align their kind of use of capital and what they say is important to them or you could make it even simpler and say their money and their life and realize like it's not there's that book your money or your life that's not what it is it's your money and your life right like that's our job is that overlap so then where do you go to learn about it like I'm really I mean I'm really uh optimistic because we're talking more about it right like I
 
 
00:13:47 - 00:14:56
mean George Kinder did some early work and I think that's one place you could send people is to George Kinder's work there's some books outside of our industry like crucial conversations is a great and then anything you can find about active listening fascinating research I just read from a colleague of mine at BAM Dan Solen who did some work on conversations and said that taking notes actively taking notes in front of a client actually decreases their sense of you listening because they think you're busy taking
 
 
00:14:22 - 00:15:17
notes which is interesting right that's fascinating yeah like He suggests being you know maybe having somebody else in the room over in the corner taking notes recording which I've done before which I love but anyway the the point being like where do you go to learn this stuff we've got to get better about it I am optimistic that we're talking more about it we're seeing more material about communication you know it's something I want to do a lot more work on like trying to kind of codify the stuff that
 
 
00:14:49 - 00:15:47
I've always done and I don't know where I learned it I just I'm a naturally curious person and so I like pushing back against like when somebody tells me I want to WR tire at 55 with this much money I like the process of saying well can would it be okay if we back up a little bit why like where did you come up with that number it sounds like you've got a specific plan in place here like where did you come and and really pushing back against false assumptions and helping people uncover them themselves like I've
 
 
00:15:18 - 00:16:09
always thought of that as a puzzle and really fun but I'm trying to do some more work and trying to like okay what is it what are the skills there so I don't know where to send them I mean I hope to have more material myself to be helpful here in the coming months and years it's a question that I get a lot and because one of the things I learned from working at a firm that we actually had a therapist that we contracted with to come in and help facilitate some of these conversations was that the skill
 
 
00:15:43 - 00:16:32
was always being able to ask the next question and as financial planners were trained to ask the question listen to the answer and move on and folks from W with a counseling background are taught to to dig deeper and to try to understand where the answer comes from from and I think that's kind of what you're hitting on is that you know somebody saying I want to retire at 55 you know we're trained with our case studies to just say okay great this is how much you need to save to get there
 
 
00:16:08 - 00:17:15
without bothering to figure out why do you want to be there yeah and that's so like and it's it's like look here's a real simple way to do it just start asking I mean my favorite thing to say is oh that's interesting tell me more about that and people leave that experience of like their first imagin how much different this is right like you're a client to be right that's my word for Prospect you're you're out looking for a financial advisor somehow you end up in your office and instead of
 
 
00:16:41 - 00:17:39
the normal thing I mean and I just I actually I don't really care if this is a side note because it's so important like realize okay so a couple of things have happened right wants the client to be is in your office a couple of things have happened number one you've got to realize you've won the battle because they don't talk to anyone about money let alone make an appointment to proactively go and talk to people about money because we don't do that we don't do and we especially don't talk I'm
 
 
00:17:10 - 00:18:00
lumping all of the real financial planners in with the traditional Financial Services industry for a minute so please don't be offended but we certainly don't talk to any of us Crooks you know what I mean like I'm not going to go talk to a financial planner those guys just so if they've overcome all of that and again please realize I know I'm preaching to the choir but you you have to realize you're nobody knows the difference between you there's not some little way to look you up under the
 
 
00:17:35 - 00:18:18
heading of real financial planner when everybody else is a fake one like you're all in the same we're all in the same boat so you've overcome all that right they're going to come talk to you about money they may have even brought your their statements you know their detailed financial information and they're going to overcome what they've read in the news and what they've heard from other people so you've already won so by one I mean like the only thing you can do from
 
 
00:17:57 - 00:18:48
there in terms of the trust I think think is kind of screw it up by doing going down the same road we're all taught to go down which and and I again I'm probably preaching the quir but if you come from the traditional sales side of this industry you're taught to build credibility immediately and so you do something like point at the degrees on the wall which you shouldn't even have on the wall and oh your kids play soccer my kids play soccer too like all that normal stuff and then you're trained to
 
 
00:18:22 - 00:19:27
spend the first 20 minutes to talking about yourself how big the firm is your skills your all that stuff and now you've blown it like try going on a date a first date where the other person spends 30 minutes talking about themselves there is no second date so all I'm saying is instead what if imagine how different it would be if instead you just opened you know with something like thank you for taking the time for coming today and you're in a conference room with no diplomas on the wall no proof of how
 
 
00:18:54 - 00:19:47
smart you are you just act as if you're the doctor right right there's no need imagine if you went to a doctor and they spent their first 15 minutes trying to prove to you like I went to this school you know like I've operated on 300 people and only two have died like everything's going to be okay like you know like so let's just pretend like the way doctors normally do it like you know it's the only place you go and somebody says drop your drawers and you just say okay so if we act like that where we
 
 
00:19:21 - 00:20:13
just say look thank you for taking the time for coming today it really shows how serious you are about making good decisions with your money the goal today is for me just to ask a whole series of questions so I can uncover real clearly like where you are today and try to get clear about where where you want to go so that when you leave we'll have all the information we need to put together a plan for you or at least a start put together a sort of a first draft of a plan so I'm just going to ask a whole
 
 
00:19:47 - 00:20:39
series of questions your job is just to relax and answer these questions right and then you dive into a an open-ended question and that question is followed by oh that's interesting tell me more now you go through 45 to 60 Minutes of that and the people are going to leave and at the end you're not saying Hey I want you to buy blue oh you don't like blue here's green like you're not asking them to buy anything you just say wow it looks like I've got all the information I need let's schedule a time two to
 
 
00:20:12 - 00:21:07
three weeks out you know they leave they're going to walk to the car and be puzzled confused by the grace is the way I like to think of it you know scratching their heads saying what just happened like I just learned some stuff that I didn't even know about myself I feel now more clear about my goals than when I went in I didn't sign up for this but that's amazing like I'm really curious as to what they come up with because I feel like they understand me better than anybody's everever
 
 
00:20:40 - 00:21:29
understood me they didn't try to sell me anything what happened right like that's what we're trying to get to does that make sense it does and talk about just a difference in attitude you know advisers ask me all the time especially younger ones they would know how do I build trust with clients how do you build trust and and it sounds like your response would be there's an assumption of trust there's an assumption of expertise don't you don't have to prove it just go in there just like a doctor
 
 
00:21:04 - 00:22:02
doesn't need to build trust with you they just kind of do their thing and they show you their process as you go through it and and how different it is from maybe somebody else's yeah I well I think there's two I love that question like how how do I build trust and I I think I mean I love saying like how do I get people to trust me I get asked that all the time and my normal answer sounds a little sarcastic I don't mean it that way it's like we'll try being trustworthy it's such a good point right
 
 
00:21:33 - 00:22:29
like and I love the idea of being slightly and please don't misunderstand this but slightly professionally arrogant and you could say another better way to say that would be professionally confident like a doctor is so look I you know what you're doing I don't care what age you are I I don't really care how much experience you have more experience than the clients right you know what you're doing and all you're really there to do anyway is craft their plan not yours and not
 
 
00:22:02 - 00:23:04
something based out of a textbook you're there to craft their plan and in order to craft their plan all you have to do is uncover it and so all you have to do is something you can do based on any level of experience which is just ask really great questions and listen and trust is not a function of the time the quantity of time you've spent with someone trust is a function of the quality of the experience and if you want want to have an amazing experience with someone ask them really great
 
 
00:22:32 - 00:23:30
questions John Bowen a mentor of mine always says people will judge you by the quality of the questions you ask and that doesn't really mean anything other than a simple question which is wow that's really interesting tell me more about that like lean into that stuff and particularly sort of even Learning to Lean Into the the uncomfort of when you ask a question like that cuz it's going to be the first time they've ever been asked and they're going to lean back and say something like gosh I don't know
 
 
00:23:01 - 00:23:55
don't fill that Gap like lean into that Gap and say ah almost like with your pen ready even though you're not taking notes but like I'm waiting you know like and and maybe you can soften a little bit like oh I here's what I heard you say you know I want to retire when in 55 just all I meant was could you tell me a little bit more about that where did that number come from what are you expecting it to look like that sort of experience and you can test this by I actually tested this once when I I went
 
 
00:23:28 - 00:24:34
to New York it was part of the book publishing tour so the the whole all the meetings were about me and my wife said to me sometimes you talk too much why don't you go ask with a goal of asking really great questions even in meetings that are about you and so my goal at every meeting I had was to hear somebody say wow that's a really good question or gez you ask good questions and I would leave and I tell you this is a universal Human Experience you can have have somebody spend an hour with you where
 
 
00:24:01 - 00:24:58
you just ask really great great questions they will leave and you will feel like you added nothing to their lives or to the conversation cuz they were talking the whole time they will leave and say something like this gosh that's one of the smartest people I've ever met and and then you'd be like what I didn't say anything well just because all you did was listen and they don't have that experience anymore especially around money you know it's such a taboo topic I mean I I remember reading a
 
 
00:24:29 - 00:25:18
research study and and I for the life of me cannot find it so we'll just we won't quote the research here but basically the premise was that somebody stood on the street corner and asked people that walked by when the last time that they had sex was and people would answer and then they would say how much money do you make and the people would walk away really quickly they wouldn't answer the money question but they were happy to share the intimate details of their of their sex life and it just kind of makes
 
 
00:24:53 - 00:25:51
the point of it's a really tough topic and no one asks us good questions about money you know it's it's really not a conversation that we have with anyone totally which makes it important to understand that if they've come now getting them to come to your office that's a whole different discussion but if they've come scheduled an appointment to meet with you to talk about money you're a financial planner they're coming for financial planning and meeting just take a deep breath for a
 
 
00:25:22 - 00:26:21
minute and realize what a sacred trust that is and don't blow it like you've been given permission to come into my life because I scheduled the time to talk to you about money don't blow it and don't blow it by trying to do the you don't like green I'll sell you blue garbage and don't blow it by trying to prove to me how smart you are I already have some little element of trust or I wouldn't be there now if you go into this softer stuff of Leaning into these questions and asking good really good
 
 
00:25:53 - 00:26:45
questions and listening and somebody's like hey man I'm just Hey kid show me what you got right like what's your stock tip for the day well it that's also really great information too like sorry you must be looking for the guy down the street that's not me and you know you have a self- selecting process but I've only found that like one out of hundreds of interviews I've only found one person who was like hey man this isn't what I came for I've had plenty of people say this is not what I came for
 
 
00:26:18 - 00:27:16
but this is amazing because I understand how important it is now how could you pretend to prescribe without ever taking the time to diagnose me and thank you for doing that because everybody else just throws prescriptions at me till I take one but I've only had one person say hey man I just want a prescription so but my point is yeah nobody talks about money think about how incredibly valuable it is and what a sacred obligation and trust and beautiful beautiful profession it is that you're
 
 
00:26:47 - 00:27:45
that person like you're that person isn't what we do awesome is a if you do it the right right like if you understand what it's really all about it's amazing I used to think about it this way like if I at least pretend to be an artist and I've had art shows and we sell art and and I always when I look at artist website there's always this section that says portfolio or work and you click on it and think of like a photographer you go and you'll see photographs and I always like to think
 
 
00:27:16 - 00:28:20
of like if you went if a financial advisor design a financial planner designed a website and you had to pretend you were an artist for a minute and you're basically a performance artist and art your medium is people's lives and you click on work what would those pictures be like to me that's amazing to think about like I can think of like I won't use real names but let's just say Dave and Brenda I can think of a picture of Dave and Brenda who decided that instead of working till they were
 
 
00:27:47 - 00:28:48
their kids were 18 and 20 and 21 with purple hair and nose rings and no interest in them because they had been working so hard that they were going to flip that and they were going to do a little bit of retirement when their kids were eight nine and and 11 and they were going to take 6 months off and homeschool their kids in their in an RV drive around the country visiting family and historical sites and make that part of the homeschooling and they came and said is that possible and I remember asking them well before we get into the
 
 
00:28:18 - 00:29:09
details of is it possible would you do it if it was like before I spend any time calculating it would you and I remember the deer in the headlight like whoa yeah I think we would well we calculated we realized it was possible it wasn't imprudent I couldn't tell them it was going to work out perfectly 30 years later but it wasn't stupid they did it right like that would be one of the little boxes under the button on my website that says work or portfolio like if we think about it that way you start
 
 
00:28:44 - 00:29:44
to realize you are you're a performance artist right and your your medium is people's lives and you're trying to figure out how can I help them live more aligned lives so they look back and go without you we would we would have never done they would not have done that they've told me they would not have done that if it weren't for my advice that's heavy stuff right like that's amazing like you look back and go I changed their kids are now how old there they're like 16 the oldest is 16 and we still
 
 
00:29:14 - 00:30:08
see them and I'm actually The Godfather of one of them despite not being Catholic and and and when we see them they tell me like that when I ask him like oh yeah that 6 months we spent on the road was super super impactful in terms of the how it shaped our lives that's just a dramatic example but I could go through with every client you know Brian and Denise anyway you know like every one of us could go through those stories when we start thinking that way I mean how cool it really is and and it's something that anytime I go
 
 
00:29:41 - 00:30:34
back and talk to college kids at universities I just want to tell them like what you're learning isn't what we do it's it's part of the tools that we use but ultimately financial planning is about helping people live their great life and their great life is is different from any anybody else's so some people want to do that some people want to travel some people want to start businesses and you have to figure out what that is and and people look at our profession as if we just do Investments
 
 
00:30:08 - 00:31:06
and sell people insurance but it's so much more we do get the opportunity to change lives and to help people live great lives and that's what makes that's what makes it so much fun yeah for sure for sure so that's your Discovery process your introductory meeting which sounds absolutely nothing like an introductory meeting I've ever been a part of so if you ever start taking on new clients you let me know um because I want to see this you know handson where does your planning process go from there
 
 
00:30:36 - 00:31:34
so you've established this relationship you know by asking great questions you've shown just how different what you do is from anybody else that they've potentially interviewed um and just tried to you know Hawk a product or or whatnot where do you go from there in your relationship with clients yes so the goal of that first meeting which I repeated I don't know hundreds of times to people the goal of this first meeting is for me just to get really clear and you know I I have to mention here that I
 
 
00:31:05 - 00:32:04
don't feel like anything I do is all that you know uniquely creative much of it was learned on the shoulders of giants like I I mean John Bowen and his process taught me a lot bill backrack and his I I don't love the name of the book but but the content of the book's awesome values based selling um George Kinder you know like I've just felt like I've rubbed shoulders with some amazing people who've taught me this stuff and I've sort of taken it and tweaked it and amalg into my process but I just want to
 
 
00:31:35 - 00:32:32
be clear those those people and many more deserve lots of credit for for helping so you'll see threads of that through you know threads of other people's work through my tapestry for sure and I'm I always try to acknowledge them but so the goal right like the goal of this first meeting was simply for me to ask enough really good questions to understand really clearly where you are today get an idea of where you want to go and maybe most importantly why you want to go there right so I just tell
 
 
00:32:04 - 00:32:51
people that so let's get started right boom We dive into a whole series of questions um and you can imagine all those qu I've never I've never asked anybody to fill out a questionnaire I think your job in fact my my wife we went to meet with an estate attorney and he had us fill out a questionaire my wife got so mad she's like your your job is to fill out I didn't come here to fill out a questionnaire ask me the question so my I feel like our jobs are to ask the right questions so we can
 
 
00:32:27 - 00:33:32
fill out the questionnaire when they leave right like so we sit down we fill out the questionnaire anyway when you leave I want to have enough information so that we can get together as a team here and put together a plan that we think represents the best chance of you reaching these goals and then I always say let me be careful about the word plan real quick I don't want you thinking that means a 2in thick book that you'll never look at my goal is to keep keep it to one page I've been
 
 
00:32:59 - 00:33:51
saying that for 10 years my goal is to keep it to one page like I you could think of it as a executive summary if you want now the risk here is that you don't think just because it's one page that you think it's super simple and it'll be backed up but if you'd like to see it I'd be happy to print out the hundreds of pages of sort of stuff that goes into it but you're not going to be any better off so I'm going to just if it's okay with you what you're going to
 
 
00:33:25 - 00:34:19
see is the prescription except you'll be able to read this one you can't read most very true right you you're going to see the prescription but I'm not going to give you all the research that went into it if that's okay with you and most people are like oh gez thank you yeah yeah yeah so they leave and then right we go back to the notes the the recording you know however it is you kept track of what went on in that that meeting and you then put together right like whatever it is you use for that
 
 
00:33:52 - 00:34:41
tool like and my goal and I normally tell this to clients like look I want you to understand that when you come back what we have will represent our best guesses at the future and I want to be clear about that word I use the word guess they're going to be guesses right there's a bunch of assumptions that goes into this the important part is not the document you see when you get back the important part is going to be the process of updating that document and continuing to work on it and I draw it
 
 
00:34:17 - 00:35:07
sort of like a funnel actually what I normally draw is an X down at the bottom left hand corner of a whiteboard and I say current reality I label it this is one of the drawings on the website if you want it for the show notes make sure we'll give it to you down in the bottom left hand corner it says current reality and then I I draw up in the upper right hand corner I say goal and I tell people in the first meeting or at the beginning of the second meeting I know what you want is a straight line and I draw a
 
 
00:34:42 - 00:35:32
straight line between those to and in fact the document we're going to give you is going to sort of look like a straight line but we want you to know that we know it's not going to work that way like let's just not pretend it is not going to work that way just like any cross country Country flight or Journey or whatever you're going to have a flight plan that represents that straight line and every pilot I've ever asked has a flight plan a detailed flight plan and it represents that
 
 
00:35:07 - 00:36:08
straight line but then when I ask those Pilots same Pilots how often does your flight go according to plan every one of them has said never the wind speeds a little different the storm you know whatever works out so what's the important part and then I draw a squiggly line that goes above and below that straight line and it slowly Narrows in on that same goal right it gets progressively more narrow as we get closer and closer to the goal and I say look the important part are these course Corrections that we're making out here
 
 
00:35:37 - 00:36:29
at the edges right so while the document's going to represent a straight line we're not committed to the plan we're committed to the process of planning and so they leave we come back we say look here's our best guess at what your future looks like you're in the ballpark we're excited for you congratulations you've done a lot of good work or whatever it is you know sorry you're not even close we need to whatever it is you have to have those conversations then you say look here's
 
 
00:36:03 - 00:36:48
the three things that I think you need to do and I don't know if it's three or five I like three and that's on the onepage plan it's like look here's what you told me your goals were here's the why you told me your values here's where you are today did we understand all that correctly okay great I'm glad we got that clear because if we didn't we'd have to start over or not start over we'd make some tweaks everything we did is based on this information do we get
 
 
00:36:26 - 00:37:16
that right yes we did there's all nodding in the room great based on that here's our suggestions right here's the two or three things that I think you need to do over the next six months to get closer and then when we're done with those guess what we're going to move to the next two or three things and guess what we're going to and we're going to keep repeating that process over and over and over and over and over until you die because there's always going to be two or three new things yeah like hey
 
 
00:36:50 - 00:37:40
we've paid off the house cool what do we do next right like why that's the part I think we forget like financial planning is a big giant guess and of course we're trained guessers and we're going to make the best guess we can and we're we're going to make informed guesses but it's at the end of the day they're still guesses and your goals are going to change that's why I love the idea of a one-page financial plan is you don't need to have it chiseled in stone right
 
 
00:37:15 - 00:38:03
it's it's a Sharpie and a piece of card stock I mean it's probably going to be a typed written executive summary on one page but it's really easy to say hey great that's the document it's the working document it's the picture on the front of the box that tells us as we're building the kids toy if we're headed in the right direction are the 200 Page instruction manual in the Box important of course it is if you want the thing to work but what we look at more often is
 
 
00:37:40 - 00:38:33
the picture on the front of the box right so we just keep updating that and saying okay what are you working on now cool why don't you start saving an extra 50 bucks a month towards the kids education look two years later you're funded cool why don't we move on to what what what are you feeling now cuz remember the Y's are going to change too think of all that right the why is going to change those values do change right like Independence used to be super important to me but now freedom is more
 
 
00:38:06 - 00:39:10
important the goals are going to change and all your assumptions are going to change so there's no question the process of ongoing course correction is way more important than the actual plan itself in fact the plan is worthless without the ongoing process of planning it's really goes back to the fact that financial planning is much more art than science and yet we try to treat it as just a science yeah I love that idea I just love the idea of advisor as artist and and I think that you know you're hitting such a good
 
 
00:38:38 - 00:39:37
point when a client sits down our office we want in many ways we're trained to confuse them into buying us we want to show them how smart we are and confuse them with all the data and the details and show them look there's no way you can do this yourself we want to be like WebMD where we just give them all the diagnosis and every time I put in my diagnosis I have brain cancer 100% of the time it scares me every time and we just want to overwhelm people and what you're proposing is that we sell
 
 
00:39:07 - 00:40:07
Simplicity Allan who likes to be treated that way no one I know I know we've all been taught that right we've all been taught that complexity is either a selling tool and that selling tool is sort of like that I'll dig a hole throw you in it and I'll look down and say hey Mr Klein I'm the only one with the Rope or either a selling tool or it's just a subtle little thing that we've mistaken complexity for a sign of intellect an intellectual gift either way either way no one likes to be treated that way no
 
 
00:39:37 - 00:40:45
one does nobody likes to feel like oh these people are so smart what they like to feel is understood right what they want to feel is you're the guide like what they want to understand is instead of being confused by the complexity they want to feel like oh my gosh I understand for once this fear we have that they're going to run off and do it themselves is so misplaced like I have tried like I try like I I would challenge anybody listening try give away everything all the information all the secrets open up
 
 
00:40:11 - 00:41:08
every cookie jar write about your process in fact if you want to build a client base fast start writing exactly about what you do every week and send it out in an email right like there are nobody I can tell you well yeah okay I can think of one client set of clients they were both doctors yeah I won't mention their names they were both doctors they came to me and after two years of being clients they like Carl you've taught us so well that we just we just are we're just going to do it on our own I was like one one
 
 
00:40:40 - 00:41:47
experience out of I don't know what the number is now but hundreds right that's fine the other people are like oh thank you for showing us will you do it for us I but nobody the point is nobody you're right nobody likes to be nobody likes to be scared into using you and nobody likes to be talked down to these are smart intelligent people or they wouldn't be calling you I mean most of them are at least somewhat successful in their own work or else they aren't asking for your help so I think if we
 
 
00:41:13 - 00:42:08
flip all that and say okay forget selling for a minute not that I'm against the word I have no problem with it but why don't we treat people the way we'd like to be treated you know let's say please and thank you let's finish what we start let's show up on time let's let's do all those basic things you'll have more work than you'll ever need to worry about if you just have the time to keep repeating that over and over and over you know one of the things that I'm that I love about
 
 
00:41:41 - 00:42:33
your process and so you've gone through what's the introductory meeting look like what does the actual plan you know development and delivery look like you haven't actually mentioned money yet um am I correct in remembering that you don't charge clients up through this point in the process yeah so also you need to realize like I don't really do this anymore right now but yeah just a couple years ago this was exactly how I did it and this is how I tell real advisers like the whole bam Community
 
 
00:42:07 - 00:43:15
this is a this is a pretty good insight into how we do things but yeah I don't charge now I can see I can see both sides my approach to this my way of dealing with the sense of kind of obligation and the sense of calling that so many of us feel in this profession has been that everybody deserves deserves this much like even if I can't help them and even if we're not a good fit I think this is a mutual exploration process up to this point and I even tell people in the first meeting you will not be asked
 
 
00:42:40 - 00:43:27
nor would we even accept a commitment at the end of this meeting or the second meeting just relax relax we're going to have this first meeting I've already mentioned what the goal of the first meeting is the second meeting we're going to present really clearly we're going to make sure we understood what you said I tell people this in the beginning of the first meeting we're going to make sure we understood what you said and then we're going to walk you through our suggestions to get you there and at the
 
 
00:43:05 - 00:43:58
end and then we're going to walk you through exactly how much it would cost on an ongoing basis and everything you need to know to make an educated decision and at the end we're going to give you that document hopefully it'll be one page we want you to leave with it and we wouldn't accept this used to drive my wife crazy we wouldn't we won't ask or accept a commitment at that point we want you to leave with it and in fact I would suggest if you've got a friend a colleague an attorney a CPA a mom a dad
 
 
00:43:31 - 00:44:25
or if you have any other advisers in mind that you go get that out of your system like go meet with them you can show them this document do whatever you want because once you make that commitment we almost feel like we've kind of reserved a seat for you on this kind of limited plane that we have and we want you to be committed and we want to be committed and so we feel like these two meetings are at the very least you'll learn a lot you can can relax a little bit you'll walk out of here if we
 
 
00:43:58 - 00:44:52
decide not to work together I think you'll be in a much better place to make good decisions about your financial lives than you would have been before and to be honest through this process it's a mutual exploration like we want to make sure that you're a good fit for us as well like the last thing we would want to do is you know beg you to become a client and then have you regret it or us regret it for the next 10 years of our lives so just relax we're going to explore this it'll it'll it'll become
 
 
00:44:25 - 00:45:15
abundantly clear whether this is a good fit for us after our second meeting so that's how I handle it so then if at the end of that second meeting we we feel good about it I often found myself making this statement hey look I've really enjoyed the last two meetings we've had it's become clear that we would really enjoy working with you and I think people feel good about that like they like to hear it it's not like a sales pitch it's the honest truth we would really enjoy working with you and
 
 
00:44:50 - 00:45:42
it's pretty clear given where you want to go and your goals and you know the all the reasons why you've told us about we would be excited to be involved what we want you to do now is take this document you go think about it we'll check in with you in about a week and if you feel good about it why don't we schedule this third meeting and at that meeting you know we've mutually decided we'll formalize our Arrangement we'll start working together how about that anyway that's that's been the process so
 
 
00:45:16 - 00:46:08
to summarize everything we've talked about it's not just a small tweak to the process you know you can't just like suddenly start drawing things on a board and and think that that's going to you know suddenly change the way that you do financial planning it really takes a mindset shift for the adviser in terms of why are they even doing financial planning what is it that they offer clients because if they feel what they offer clients is just a rockstar asset allocation then they're not going to be
 
 
00:45:43 - 00:46:34
able to utilize a lot of these principles and they're probably in both of our opinions I think going to suffer um as a business going forward but it's a real mindset shift that it is more art than science it is about helping clients figure out what they want to do with their life and being willing to give away the expertise because that's not why clients are coming to us they're not coming to us just because we can write a 200 Page book with a bunch of numbers in it they're coming to us because they
 
 
00:46:08 - 00:47:07
really just want our help yeah I it's it's just super important to understand everything else I think everything else now look technical chops are the price of Entry like if you don't know what you're doing which again speaking I'm preaching of the choir and you have no business doing any of this anyway so don't very true I think it's important for us to remember like this isn't just something oh I I'm really like no you got to know what you're doing and you got to have the
 
 
00:46:37 - 00:47:35
technical chops to even price of Entry right and but that's not what people are going to pay for because most of that stuff they don't even know what it is so yeah I think focusing on what makes a human being unique is that connection and the empathy and the ability to sort of guide me through keep me committed like somebody asked me why I would hire a planner it was the only three things I could think of were help me get really clear about my goals now I wouldn't I don't I wouldn't expect a client to come
 
 
00:47:07 - 00:48:06
in and say that hey hi I'm here for you to help me but that's that's what they really want help me get clear about my goals remind me of what I said they were when I'm thinking of doing something stupid and then be the thing between me and stupid like those are the three things that I think we get paid for I think that's such a good way to put it that's why we should hire planners and yet I I'd be curious to know how many financial advisers actually have their own planner so kind of wrapping up
 
 
00:47:37 - 00:48:27
there's a couple of different things that I want to mention that and ask you some questions about things you've been working on one is that folks may already know this but uh Carl you're going to be doing a two-hour workshop at the xypn conference in Charlotte in September now this is a giant tease for anyone that hasn't already bought a ticket because we just sold out so if you don't already have a ticket going to have to push it off to next year uh but Carl's going to be there doing a 2-hour workshop on
 
 
00:48:02 - 00:48:51
exactly what we're talking about today which is literally it's called The Master Communicator is the name of the the two-hour Workshop but it's literally going through your process and I'm really excited to see it because like I said I I would become a client just to see it so I think it's going to be awesome to just see what what is your process what does it really look like because it can feel Pie in the Sky because we've never it's not how we were trained it's not how we grew up being
 
 
00:48:26 - 00:49:21
told to do financial planning yeah well thank you I'm super excited to do it yeah it will just be an expanded version of what we just went through and there's a couple of ways to get information from Carl one is there's a a book released what in March called the onepage financial plan so if you don't believe a financial plan could be done in one page I promise it can be it is a phenomenal resource it's such a good book and I didn't run this by you but we're going to give away 10 copies
 
 
00:48:53 - 00:49:45
of the onepage financial plan in the outro of each show listeners here how to sign up for our our free VIP community and uh so the the first 10 people that sign up after this call will get a book in the mail with the one page financial plan because I love that book I think it's I'm so glad that you wrote it I have to say thank you yeah that's I'm flattered and yeah that's awesome and let's make sure they're signed copies for sure I will up the ante a little bit so we'll give away 10 signed copies well
 
 
00:49:20 - 00:50:16
I don't know that they want me to sign them no I'm kidding I know no and the last piece is you were telling me just before we started recording about a new I would call it like a help implementing these theories you know in terms of like literal tangible help so could you tell folks or tell listeners about kind of what you're working on that will actually give them their resources to be able to implement more of these ideas in their practice Yeah so we're working on a a little sort
 
 
00:49:47 - 00:50:56
of membership program or Community program called art art for advisors with the sort of subtitle the the art of conversation and it will just be a subscription base where every week you get a mini you know an idea SL Mini case study SL example or lesson on this along with one image that we've picked from the arc the library of now close to 400 and coaching on how to use the image right so those images now you can buy them for $99 and you get a license to use them any way you want it's a
 
 
00:50:22 - 00:51:26
Creative Commons 4 license which essentially just means you have to give me attribution right you can do anything you want with it as long as you and the attribution is built into the image so it's not a problem with this membership program you'll get one a week and along with a weekly lesson and access to a monthly Q&A conference call for members only and that at least right now that's going to be $99 a month for that service and I guess what you and I talked about Allan is we're still in kind of and when
 
 
00:50:54 - 00:51:56
I say beta we're still in sort of invit ation only the the program is not really beta we've been working on this for 10 years but in terms of signing up we're sort of in Invitation Only beta then that will be at a discounted sort of Lifetime price so we haven't decided yet but I think it's going to be $79 instead of $99 so if you're interested in being involved and just learning more about it we can send you information all you need to do is email you can just email me Carl Behavior gap.com Carl Behavior
 
 
00:51:25 - 00:52:20
gap.com and we'll we'll send you all the information you know give you access to a a page where you could sign up for $79 as part of the invitation only beta group and you can cancel anytime you want so you go through one month and you don't like it keep the four or five images we've sent you the lessons and cancel and we will absolutely part friends so that's the program and one of the other things that they will learn and we'll put Carl's email address in the show notes one of the other things
 
 
00:51:53 - 00:52:48
they'll learn is that you are probably and we we should have you on a show just to talk about your delegation skills uh you'll actually hear back from some of Carl's amazing staff who just are rock stars uh you're such a great delegator and so when people email you they'll probably see some of that delegation at work and getting signed up for the program yeah but that's absolutely true but what people don't realize is I still see every one of those emails and I don't see it in email form it it's it's
 
 
00:52:20 - 00:53:15
a whole another story you're right but I don't see the inside of email because if I do bad things happen inside my brain but I still read all those comments so I would love your feedback on this show i' love your feedback on the sort of the process we went through i' love your feedback on the the sort of the membership Community we're building and I will see and respond appropriately to that feedback but if you want stuff to get done you got to get in the hands of the people who do the stuff better than
 
 
00:52:48 - 00:53:50
you very true and that's the team here so I care enough about people that email to delegate appro rately to make sure there their replies because if I didn't they wouldn't get a reply ever right that's that's how I phrase it that's such a good way to to phrase that because it's so true okay so last question is and we ask all of our our guests this question if you could go back whether it's in your 20s or or kind of getting started in the career kind of launching into this basically becoming
 
 
00:53:19 - 00:54:24
an artist accidentally if you could go back and tell yourself one thing if there's just one thing you wish you had known then that that you know now what do you think that one piece of advice or information would be lean into fear and let me just explain it real quickly I wanted to say don't be scared that little kernel you feel I think of it sometimes as like a little piece of sand in my shoe that little in your soul or your spirit or your psychic whatever you want to call it saying you
 
 
00:53:51 - 00:54:49
can do things differently like no you don't have to do that like you don't have to settle and you don't have to be reasonable and you don't have to like that little feeling you have that says hey no I want to change the world in this little way I want to make my small dent in the universe as Steve Jobs used to say do it right don't be scared because I know when you go to do something different and especially younger people in our profession when you go to do something different than
 
 
00:54:20 - 00:55:17
the way it's been done you're going to have one a giant blow dryer point at your face with all sorts of heat and uncomfort and it's going to push you to just push through it right like don't I wanted to say don't be scared but I realize that's not the right thing because you are going to be scared do it anyway right like I've learned to love that fear like I feel it almost every day now where I'm like oh my gosh who gave me permission to do that who gave me today's Thursday isn't it yeah
 
 
00:54:48 - 00:55:50
today's the day that I have to sit down at a desk with a sharpie in Park City Utah and Draw Something to go on what every week is on the most emailed list at the New York Times in the New York Times like who gave me permission like you're just a kid from Utah what in the world are you doing I and every week I have to say I'm going to do it anyway right and the difference between people who create and change and make and I again I I hope I'm in that group but I don't know I'm
 
 
00:55:19 - 00:56:17
not necess but the difference is not that they stop feeling that fear it's that they've learned to do anyway and so that I know you have it right I know you felt it that little sense you have that you can do things different you can change the world you can make a massive impact on even if you've made a massive impact on a hundred families for the rest of your life think of the difference right do it anyway that would be the piece of advice I love it this has been so much fun Carl thank you
 
 
00:55:49 - 00:56:48
again for taking the time to be on this show I I know listeners got a ton out of it I know I did so this has been so much fun my pleasure it was really really an honor thank you what an awesome interview that was as much fun as I expected it to be Carl is always a delight I have always wanted to peek under the hood at Carl's financial planning process since I knew it would be something just totally different than I've ever seen in the financial planning profession now as we mentioned in the interview if you are
 
 
00:56:18 - 00:57:21
one of the next 10 advisor to sign up for our VIP Community you will get a free copy a free signed copy as you heard of his latest book the onepage financial plan it is an awesome awesome book I highly recommend it even if you don't get a free copy from us definitely you can check out the show notes at xylan network.com SL2 and you can get a link to his book I highly recommend that you buy it it's probably the type of book that you would want to give your clients you can see how to sign up for our VIP community at
 
 
00:56:49 - 00:57:48
xplay network.com SL2 or listen to the outro for instructions now before we go I want to give another shout out to our launch week sponsored low load Insurance Services I have personally worked with low load for over four years now and have to say that they are an incredibly valuable member of your financial planning team now as F advisers we simply can't transact insurance for our clients and telling clients to shop for coverage with a local insurance agent is certainly not ideal so I have found
 
 
00:57:19 - 00:58:22
through working with low load that they allow me to provide such a higher level of service than I can provide on my own particularly in in relation to insurance work because they have a growing team of over 16 Insurance Specialists that know the ins and outs of the insurance industry so if you'd like to learn more go to ll.com or you can check out the link in our show notes at xylan network.com and also be sure to tune in for episode 5 for an in-depth interview with Mark Mau the CEO of llis thanks
 
 
00:57:50 - 00:58:57
everybody for tuning in look forward to seeing you next time you're not alone and you're not crazy it's scary starting building and growing your own financial planning firm and that's why we put together a free private Community just for you the cuttingedge financial planner go to XY planning network.com slvp or text xypn radio to 33344 and join a network of thousands ready to change the lives of Gen X and geny [Music] clients
 

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Carl Richards, CFP® Headshot

Carl Richards, CFP®

Creator of the Behavior Gap
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