Podcast → Episode No. 203

When a Therapist and a Teacher Start a Financial Planning Firm

With John Chesbrough, CFP®, RLP®, RICP® and Elizabeth Snyder, MS, LMHC, CFP®,RICP®

September 23, 2026

Featuring

Elizabeth Snyder, MS, LMHC, CFP®,RICP®

Trail Financial Planning

John Chesbrough, CFP®, RLP®, RICP®

Trail Financial Planning

What can a therapist and a teacher bring to a financial planning practice? Quite a lot, as I learned from John Chesbrough and Liz Snyder, the partners behind Trail Financial Planning.

In this episode of Behind The Advisor (previously known as XYPN Radio), John and Liz share the career paths that led them to financial planning and how they decided to build a practice together. We talk about the connection between money and emotions, how their different skill sets shape how they work with clients, and what it takes to grow a practice while maintaining other careers. They also share how they divide client work, handle disagreements, and think about Trail’s future.

If you’ve ever wondered how your experience outside financial services could shape the kind of advisor you become, I think you’ll enjoy this conversation.

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What You'll Learn from This Episode:

How John and Liz found their way from teaching and therapy into financial planning
Who Trail Financial Planning serves and how the partners work with clients
How do they balance other careers while building a practice
Where they’ve focused their efforts to find clients
How Liz’s background in therapy informs conversations about money
How they divide responsibilities, navigate disagreements, and plan for the future

Featured on the Show:

John Chesbrough, CFP®, RLP®, RICP®: Site | LinkedIn | Blog
Elizabeth Snyder, MS, LMHC, CFP®,RICP®: Site | LinkedIn
Traction by Gino Wickman
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Read the Transcript Below:

00:01

welcome to xypn radio where your host Alan Moore brings you into a community of the only financial planners who want to profitably and successfully serve Gen X and Gen Y clients if you're ready to get the knowledge you need from leaders in your field learn from Forward

00:16

Thinking advisors and take action on your own goals xypn radio is the show for you here's your host hello and welcome to this episode of xypn radio I'm your host Alan Moore and I'm excited to have xypn members John and Liz founders of Trail Financial Planning in

00:31

Bellingham Washington on the show today both John and Liz have very different backgrounds but both were career Changers Liz actually started her career in a broker dealer before deciding this wasn't the career for her so she became a therapist she ended up finding her way

00:45

back to financial planning though and has been using her skill set of communication and digging in with clients to really understand their motivations to elevate the financial planning process John came from a background in teaching and discovered Financial Planning and started the

00:57

transition over they decided to partner for the launch of of their raia as they saw the benefits of having a partner to bounce ideas off of and provide a complimentary skill set both still have other jobs with John making the leap into full-time financial planning here

01:10

shortly but it was great to hear how they're both making it work to have two jobs each they're still working through with the ideal firm structure will be but I was able to dig in around how they communicate about issues and it was a great discussion that all listeners with

01:23

the business partner or thinking about having a business partner will benefit from xypn can't miss annual conference returns to St Louis in September 2019 this event is jam-packed with valuable content for new firm launchers and established firm owners alike take a

01:38

much needed break from working in your business to work on your business and connect with like-minded advisers leading the financial planning movement go to xylan network.com xypn live radio to grab your past today you do not want to miss this you can find any of the additional

01:56

resources that we mentioned during the episode at xylen network.com 203 also be sure to go to xyn network.com viip to join our private group just for xyp and radio listeners it's the community of advisers we've all been looking for that's there to provide

02:10

support when we need the most best of all it's free I encourage you to check it out again that's XY plany network.com viip without further Ado here's my interview with John and Liz hey John and Liz welcome to the show thanks so much for being on thanks for

02:27

having us Alan we're excited thank you so just to give listeners sort of a quick overview of the practice where you located number of clients you know sort of the the business relationships that that the two of you have and then we'll dig into the details okay great we're in

02:43

Bellingham Washington how many clients we have so yeah so we're a financial planning sort of a typical setup planning and investment management firm we have we have about 15 current planning only clients and then 20 Investment Management clients and so we

03:03

distinguish those two the investment management people we also do planning for them but for lots of reasons including compliance we kind of have to distinguish the two yeah which we can talk about Washington is a tough state right now from a regulatory standpoint

03:20

which we're hoping will change soon yeah so let's let's go back in time a little bit so Liz I'll start with you and and how you came to be in a financial planning firm so what has been your career path okay well mine has been quite long and I'm a career changer now

03:37

into the financial planning path but I started out with a business degree years ago and then I ended up getting a M's in mental health counseling and I've been a therapist for the last 20 years working mostly with young adult women and Adolescence now that is not a transition

03:56

you hear much from going from business degree to therapy so what was it about that well I actually I as after my business degree I did work at a broker dealer firm for a year and was quite disillusioned with it it wasn't really for me sure at the time and I was pretty

04:13

young and I ended up traveling and afterwards came back and really wanted to study psychology so I went from psychology I got a degree in Psychology and then went and got my Master's after that okay so yeah what was it about therapy that was an attractive profession for you oh wow

04:31

that's a great question you know I just liked I liked a more human connection with people I think when I was at the at the brokerage firm and doing business I didn't feel that as much and I really was attracted to the idea of working with people and helping people yeah it's

04:46

so interesting how you know mo most people don't View financial planning as a helping profession right people from outside the industry they think we're all insurance sales people and I really believe therapy and financial planning are very closely aligned in terms of the

04:59

ultimate work that we do in in helping our clients really discover you know what it is that they want out of life and and helping them achieve that so I think there's a lot more crossover than people give it credit for but you know I think I'm going to be saying that for

05:12

the next 30 years to try to convince folks that that's the case well actually I I really believe that to be the case and I feel that when I'm working with financial planning clients just how similar it actually is the work and and how you do the work with people so how

05:27

did you transition from therapy into financial planning then well I met a woman who was a financial planner and she had been a nurse practitioner in her former life and she thought we just talked and she thought I would really like it I really like the idea of a more kind of problem

05:44

focused goal directed work with people therapy can be sometimes nebulous and so I was just excited about that I have young kids and I was thinking I don't know if I want to be a therapist working with adolescence when my kids are adolescent so I was thinking of

06:00

of you know kind of different career paths after working with clients for so long and she just thought I would really like it so I created a relationship with her and and from that just slowly have been working towards changing into financial planning I tell you what it

06:14

sounds like a small thing but that's a really big transition is to you know yes they are closely aligned professions but it's hard to see that when you're on the outside so I mean that it's such a big career move you know to come to leave what you've been doing for you know a

06:31

decade or more like and you spent all this time in school and all that I mean how do you how do you make that transition because you know we'll talk about John story which I know a little bit better and you're both career Changers so how do you make the decision

06:43

to to walk away from you know this career that you've been building and this expertise you've been building into a new career which thankfully you can now you know still use many of the skill sets that you learned right I think because I can still use the same a lot

06:57

of the same skill sets it's really a nice natural transition but it's a really slow one I mean I'm I would say I'm scaffolding into financial planning where I've really kept my Counseling Practice and I'm slowly moving out of that as I move into more financial

07:13

planning clients so I'd say it's slow it hasn't been and I I really have wrestled with that whether I should just jump and go right into financial planning or do this kind of slower move and that's what I keep doing I keep coming back to wanting to keep counseling and grow this

07:29

new financial planning I kind of think of it as doing and both like doing it all so what is your current breakdown of time between therapy and the financial planning firm so right now I would say I'm still doing therapy just due to a bunch of life situations I'm doing my

07:46

Counseling Practice about 80% and financial planning about 20% and I'd like to move that in the fall to more 5050 okay awesome and then did you go through sort of a formal Financial planning education program where are you at from a cfp standpoint and and it more

08:04

formal education if you will yeah so I took the series 65 about a year and a half ago I was trying to get that and then I'm currently doing the curriculum for the cfp program okay awesome so are you working then directly with clients you know doing financial planning I am I

08:21

am I'm working with a few clients yes and and I'd say I I probably pushed Liz to move a little faster faster than she was ready because we've been talking about it for a few years going into business together and so a couple years ago when I was ready to make the leap I

08:37

was like Liz we should do it right now and so we did she's game yeah so I so I'd say I have about two financial planning clients a month right now and mostly just do plans for them assessment strategizing you know problem identification and and then working with

08:56

them ongoing if that's what they'd like makes sense all right so so John let's hear some of the the path you took because it has also been varied and long I think to get to this point so how what did you think you were gonna be when you grew up well I I remember really just

09:15

thinking I was never going to grow up all through my 30s and then I set a real strong goal for myself I was like all right when I turn 30 I need a real job and so I went back to school and got my teaching degree my wife and I moved overseas we lived in South Africa for a

09:30

couple years and when we went there we all of a sudden found ourselves we used to live in Boseman without our whole outdoor community and we had extra income and not that many things to do because when you're working in another country and you don't have a big

09:47

Community we we ended up with time so I was like I need to learn how to manage my own money because we had extra money and so I just started sort of self-learning that was back in 2002 then we started a family moved back to the States I kept teaching until 2012 I kept

10:04

trying to get other friends really interested in taking charge of their finances and finally people friend my neighbor was like chesbro will you just do it for me and so I looked into becoming an raia and the wash Washington state has this whole page that says

10:20

here's how you become an RA and I was like oh that doesn't look that looks kind of cool so I did that and then in 2015 I just started people started you know more and more people were asking me for help and and they started asking me for more complicated questions and I

10:35

realized like wow I need to know a lot more about this that's when Liz and I really started talking about it in Earnest and I started the cfp coursework and finished that and took test passed it in November of 2016 and then we went on a family travel trip again in 2016

10:52

and I had about four months of time where I wasn't working as a teacher because I taken a half year off and I knew that that was time that I could really dive into this business and so that's when I said to Liz I was like hey I've got time I'm ready to do it you

11:07

want to do it with me let's go and she said okay let's go and so then we started Trail Financial Planning in what the spring of 2017 how did the two of you originally meet yeah so my wife's a therapist and Liz is a therapist and so they have professionally been colleagues and

11:26

friends for a long time and then we actually my wife and I and Liz we bought a building together where both actually all three of us now have our offices so we've we've been in Business Partnership for several years okay and so what was it that the two of you saw in each other

11:44

that that was going to make this a successful business relationship because I I'll say that a lot of people rush into it and and it's probably harder to split up from a business partner than it is to get divorced it's just a mess right and so like you want to be sure you're making a

11:60

good decision but I mean you never really know but what what did the two of you see in each other that you felt like was going to make this this thing work that's a great question Alan Liz you're up well we had we had owned oh it's such a good question we had owned the

12:15

building together we had found out kind of inadvertently that we were both interested in becoming planners along the way and I think I think it was kind of intuition unfor unfortunately for lack of a better way to say that I think we just thought it would be something

12:33

that would work to work together just based on our skill sets and the differences that we have that we could do it and you had worked some together already right and and gone into business the first time which I guess you know you don't have to buy a building with

12:48

someone to necessarily assess that you know you're you're how to get along but it's probably easier to own a building together than to run a financial planning firm together but yeah it's an important thing that I I think it's EAS to overlook I mean you know I didn't

13:00

know Michael at all when we started XY I mean we we barely knew each other so we're fortunate that it worked out but it is something that I don't think we pay enough attention to but is important is you know who you're getting into business with because it it is a

13:13

marriage it's just a different type of marriage you know that that is important that that it works well yeah and I think I think we tried to we tried to be pretty intentional about it we got a book The partnership Charter we worked through some of their prompts and sort

13:29

of created our own partnership Charter about it I talked to a lot of people about Partnerships and heard a lot of that feedback that it's that it's difficult and but from my perspective like there's an African proverb that says if you want to go fast go alone if

13:45

you want to go far go together and so I've just always I've always felt that that I do much better work when I have somebody to collaborate with and maybe that's the teacher of me or whatever but so I was really I really wanted to work with somebody I had talked to lots and

14:01

lots of people about hey we should talk about Investments and finances of our families and most of my friends like the idea of it but we mostly just sat around drank beer so when when like Liz is really interested in all the topics and then she has a a great interpersonal

14:19

skill set of working with people so I knew that I I had a lot to learn from Liz I also like the fact that as a business owners she's female and I'm male and so we there's some a little bit of diversity within our within our business to help people of different

14:38

walks very cool yeah it's like you said sometimes it's just a gut you know and and just sort of seeing you know hoping for the best I'll add to that it was it was a gut that's kind of how I operate a lot but but also I knew that Don was really skilled and

14:54

he had been been doing this for about five to seven years before and was really excited about starting a business and excited about working with me too and got me involved with XY and and it just felt like it would be a good fit so John you you sort of glossed over

15:15

this in the the teaching background that you have so I mean you've been teaching for a number of years now in in the school correct yes correct so how do you feel like that transition has been so Liz coming from a therapist to financial planner you're coming school teacher to

15:30

financial planner how has that career transition gone yeah I don't think it's as closely related as I as I as I would have guessed to begin with at first I I I talked to a lot of people and they said oh yeah being a teacher that transition lots of people do it which is

15:47

true but interpersonally I guess I relate to people a lot that's what I'm attracted to the profession for but the intimate and emotional nature of it around a person's life I like I'm a physics teacher I'm a physics and math teacher so it's been much more you know it's much more skills

16:09

oriented or content oriented and less so much about self-development of my students some some of that but but much more skills so I do present some information to clients but there's there's a whole there's a whole realm of just like trying to process and and work our way through

16:31

through the emotional weight of someone's finances that I absolutely love that I I just it's what's gotten me really fired up about this profession but it's not so related to teaching yeah essentially because I I too would have been on the like yes

16:47

having a background as a teacher because you know would would be a big help because I I enjoyed the thought of teaching I I taught a couple classes in college but I was never a teacher full-time and so I I felt like there was some education crossover but it also

17:01

depends on like how much you're educating your client which sometimes we can do not enough of sometimes we can do too much and clients just want us to do it some some clients don't care how the watch is made they just want to know the time but that's really interesting

17:13

feedback because I I would definitely put myself in the camp of like oh yeah teaching to financial planning like easy transition yeah yeah I don't know I'm I'm enjoying it a lot and I get pretty good feedback from clients so maybe there is more crossover than I give a

17:28

credit but I don't I don't I don't look at myself and be like Oh yeah this is just like teaching so what is your time breakdown between teaching and the financial planning firm yeah good question so when I when I when we started the firm in 2017 I had time off then I kind of

17:44

freaked out about income and so I went back to school full-time that was in 2017 then I was getting busy a year ago and so this year I've been working halftime teacher and halftime Financial planning and our school schedule has just worked out absolutely perfectly for

18:05

me that I can be at school for one day and then I can be at business for the other day so yesterday I was teaching physics and today here I am as a financial planner that is not something that I'm kind of lucky that it's happened this year like I know that if I

18:21

stayed I couldn't do that in a consistent way so I I already asked for next year for fully so I'll be done teaching at the end of this year oh wow so so you went back but now you're you're going to be steing away is that a time is it just come down to time is it

18:37

just wanting to be able to transition your focus over yeah it's it's both it's time it's wanting to transition my focus like I recognize that well first of all you open up a business and you're like we this is going to be so fun and then all of a sudden you're running a

18:52

business you're like oh my God there's a lot of things to know and learn and figure out and when you can't dedicate when I can't can't dedicate all my my mind and energy towards it I feel the repercussions of that so I I need to dedicate the full thing my full time to

19:08

towards it and also then from just a Time perspective I'm pretty much working 1.5 jobs right now because financial planning I'm close to I'm close to 160 hours a month I've been I think I've been putting in like 140 per month for the last three months just into the

19:27

planning firm yeah yeah just in the business wow okay so you really are full-time planning and also teaching halftime no big deal yeah yeah and nobody's super happy about that including my wife understood so I guess we're to take it from here so the two of you are now you

19:45

know so both working in The Firm obviously there there's some transitioning in and and learning and and all of that and you've been in business now you said about two years together yeah two years wow yeah so where have you found some of the early success in terms of getting clients

20:04

because I know you know in the end it all comes down to being able to get clients so where have you sort of focused and and been able to see some success there so I would say for me I I blog I've been blogging and I wrote a couple blogs Washington state had a big

20:22

shift in its College savings plan where people had to make some kind of critical decisions about about college savings for their kids and so I was blogging about that our website went from about 10 hits a week to when I blogged about that right before the deadline that

20:39

everybody had to figure out all of a sudden our website was getting like 400 plus hits a day and and tons of people started calling me from that and then so I would just talk to people and that that probably turned into I don't know four or five different clients and then

20:56

I had a handful of clients and then I think our our Google search results maybe as a result of that blog have started coming up from that so we're sort of getting we're getting inquiries from a mix of direct Google search some referral and then also from people

21:15

finding us directly through issues related to the blog or I think the blog is creating an ability for people to find our website then I know Liz I think yours are coming from from slightly different mostly referrals I believe mostly I'm getting referrals I see a lot of single women

21:36

approaching retirement that's kind of my nature widowed women and so I think they're hearing about me through their therapist or through other friends mostly and some are Googling and really looking for a feel the planner or have enjoyed knowing that I'm a therapist so

21:51

I'm getting some specific questioning around budget and behavior and things like that yeah that I want to talk about because this is just this is fascinating to me listeners you know may remember that I my first job was with a financial planner Rick Kaylor who we had a

22:06

therapist that we collaborated with I you know in my master's degree program we actually did Financial Planning in the marriage and family therapy clinic because the students the marriage of family therapy students that had to get their hours kept getting money questions

22:20

they didn't know the answer so they brought us in and I'll say we learned a lot more than they did just from just being able to watch the interaction between a therapist and a client so a couple of things with this so one is how do you manage the ethics because I know

22:34

this is something the financial Therapy Association or the FTA had you know started talking about a long time ago but do you do financial planning for a client who you are also engaged in a therapy relationship with or no absolutely absolutely not no I have it

22:49

very separate actually I actually even had different last names I I have a practice last name and then a married last name and I was really like I'm going to differentiate entirely because I don't want to cross any of those ethical boundaries whatsoever so I do

23:03

not see clients or anyone that would know a client for financial work okay with that said I think the other direction is a little bit slipperier I guess that's even a word so I'll get somebody who wants Financial Planning and if they want a more therapeutic

23:21

approach I still will refer out if they need therapy therapy if I can do some behavioral work or case management with them around their financial situations I'll do that if that makes sense that differentiation but if they really want to go deep into their therapeutic issues

23:37

I won't see them for that yeah is there a line that that's clear or is it sort of a gut feel of you know I mean we all have different definitions of some of these things so it's like you know you can help with behavioral change but you can't do therapy like is that a great

23:49

area or is is there a point at which it's a pretty clear line of okay this is the line I can't cross I think it's each person I think it's a case by case basis on that but I definitely if I like for for example if I'm seeing somebody who has grief and I can tell it's it's

24:05

protracted grief they're not really moving out of it and they want to do financial planning with me I'll refer them to a therapist and that's kind of how I draw that line as I refer them to somebody I help them get connected to somebody so that's very clear that I'm

24:18

not that person does that answer that question it does it's a line you know that the rest of us haven't seen before cuz we don't and I imagine it's I don't know I just asked is it a struggle that you you have this amazing skill set in therapy to not want to go there with

24:34

someone because you're like I can help hear it here's the help but you know you can't yeah you know that's an interesting question for me because it actually is like I can I can see oh I can see where you would need help but it's actually a relief for me because I

24:49

want to move more into problem focused work with people like working on a specific issue around their money it's kind of a relief like okay that's not that's not for me to work with I'm going to refer that out and I don't and now I don't have to worry about helping them

25:03

with that fair enough I my therapist practices Solutions focused therapy and I know that is a a hot button topic of whether or not but I love it because I can go to her and I can be like all right here's my problem she's like okay let's solve it we solve it and she's

25:16

like I don't know come back when there's another problem and I love that because that's just my personality but I know that there are many different forms of therapy and and styles and that sort of thing that may or may not lend itself well to a financial planning

25:29

relationship but like we said there's this there is this conversation of ethics of you know you know you you need to be care and therapists especially can't wear two hats I wish financial planners could only wear one hat but you know they let us do whatever we want

25:41

except when they don't in the case of Washington which we'll talk about yeah and you know you don't it's really important to me doing this work you know one of the main drives for me to become a planner is i' feel like people can get taken advantage of by the financial

25:55

world and so I really want to make sure that's not what's happening to somebody because there is that differential and power and it's an opportunity for people to take advantage I really want to make sure it's really clean and clear that that's not happening fair enough so do

26:11

y'all ever I mean so again when my first job where we had the therapist and I don't think he was practicing therapy with us in the room he was really there to ask the next question and that's what I've just always been so impressed with with therapists with whether it be in

26:27

that setting or or you know my therapist asking me questions or my wife and I see a therapist sometimes like just having just being in the room with someone who is just gifted at asking questions that was just so powerful for us as financial planners do y'all ever work in the with

26:41

with clients together in the same room sort of planner not therapist but planner with the therapy you know skill set or do you keep it separate and you each have your own clients that you work with primarily primarily we do it with our own clients but we we are moving towards

26:56

that direction we event would love to be an ensemble practice where we have you know multiple advisers working with individual clients at least that's my goal and so we've done a couple testers especially when we see so far we've really done it with with couples where

27:12

we're like we think there's some underlying I don't know py yeah ju you go so we've done that we've done that twice once I don't know and we ended up just taking one person as being the lead adviser and then Liz in that case was just a notetaker and what was awesome

27:34

about it is that then she and I were able to talk about their case and what's going on and there was definitely some tension between the two of them in the room that was really valuable yeah I love having another professional in the room I think above all else that was one of the more

27:51

powerful things was just even if it's you know lead advisor associate adviser but especially someone who's who practices a therapist and so they have the skill set of reading people and and really understanding people's emotions it's just so helpful to to be able to

28:05

cover your blind spots and so it it's expensive because you have two Professionals in the room and that's why a lot of us don't do it is because it it basically doubles the fee that someone has to pay us when we have two people in the room but it is a really powerful

28:18

interaction if you can do it occasionally or or when necessary even yeah and I think that's I think that's probably where we'd go is that we would start with two people in room for the discovery portion of a meeting and then back off to a one advisor to a

28:33

client just to keep the costs down but but I find it really valuable and Liz has great insight into into people so how did y'all decide to to have a partner out of the gate because I know a lot of folks you know we think entrepreneurship I'm going to do it on

28:49

my own I'm going to take over the world and you know I'm obviously a fan of having a partner I've got a great one but you made this decision earlier than most I find most people who end up with a partner either you know already had some sort of partnership that just sort of rolled

29:01

into financial planning which maybe this sort of is or you know they they get F far enough into the business they're like yeah I really don't want to do this alone how how did you make that decision because I feel like that was a big one to do pretty early

29:12

on okay this just pointed at me I think that's because I dragged her into this maybe to some degree you know again I I just think that I have always worked collaboratively with people and I I feel like there's like when you're creating something I've always thought of this

29:29

analogy of a pencil that you've got one side of it the writing side and then the other side of it is the is the Eraser and you don't really create a good product with only one side of the pencil and so I'm a pretty good writer like but I kind of like I vomit out

29:46

stuff and Liz is kind of the Eraser you know and she's like yeah that's crazy that's too much that's that's like slow all this stuff down so I I think we're we're going to build something a a lot better than what I could build on my own there's no doubt that there's been there

30:03

been challenging like you said like it's a relationship and so we are constantly having conversations that sometimes I feel like a little spoiled little teenager going I feel like I'm working I don't know like and and I'm getting resentful or something and we just need

30:18

to and we talk about it and then I feel way better and so we we have to have continually have those conversations and and Liz and and I don't know Liz if you want to say something about how you feel well if anybody knows John John is a Workhorse he can produce a tremendous

30:39

amount of work and so and I am not and I have you know I will work less and we talked a lot about that but those kind of differences do end up showing up of you know Equitable effort into the business and how do we how do you allocate for that and keep it Equitable

30:56

and let everybody be who they are and so those have been some big discussions when you're in a partnership it's a partnership it's not I think I we kind of had some visions of having a real siloed partnership and it you really can't Silo it that easily completely and

31:11

so how to manage that those are all some questions I think maybe we we wish we would have thought out more in the beginning but we've thought them out as we've gone along and we keep coming back to feeling great about being in Partnership so I don't think we I don't

31:25

think we knew we didn't know the questions to necessarily ask like we had this Vision that oh well it'll sort of look like a realtor model and that where we're both working under the same umbrella we're just sort of sharing costs and we and we build a

31:41

business that we can still that we can both work within maybe as we've realized that that the work is just much more complex than than certainly than what I thought that realize like we're not sure that that model works all that well or I don't know we're we're still navigating

31:58

that like how how does it work so we're still we're still siloed Liz has her clients and she makes her Revenue I have my clients I make my Revenue we're starting to get a couple Blended cases here where it makes sense for us to work together and we're navigating that like

32:11

how are we going how are we going to do that I think yeah that's you know and and then there's there's time differentials like I've already committed half of my sort of working hour time to this business and and Liz isn't ready to do that which is totally

32:25

fine but we need to figure out how do you how do you navigate that and and so we have like check-ins I don't know every every month or so we'll go get breakfast or just have coffee or something just how you feeling what's going on and and talk it through I I love that you hit on a

32:44

couple of awesome points there one it's a really interesting analogy around real estate because real estate agencies I guess like they are truly siloed I mean they share cost of resources and that is it I mean you know you don't help other realators in your office why would you

32:59

like it doesn't help you your revenue is not generated there but the direction you're talking about going sounds to me more like a law firm where it's yeah I have my clients where I'm the relationship manager but like if I have an issue I'm going to bring in other

33:10

lawyers with other you know Niche expertise and and maybe hand them off or maybe work together like it's more of a legal firm Ensemble if you will versus the true Silo of of a real estate practice that's yeah I don't know if that's fair you know and I come I come

33:26

from a very silo profession I've been I've been in in groups with other therapists but we're all very individual and we don't share any Revenue so it's it's just been interesting thinking about the different ways you can partner and and build a business together you

33:41

know and the other thing that you mentioned was being willing to to sit down and do check-ins I know the the EOS model which we follow closely recommends a a same page meeting I I think it's at least quarterly if if not more regularly with a partner as well as you know as

33:56

well as with your team team members because you know Michael and I deal with this too where this is my I guess sort of my full-time job because I also I guess I'm CEO of XY as well as a advice pay so those two jobs equal my full-time job but you know Michael has 47 other

34:10

things going on and so we are Equitable owners but we are not Equitable in the business and and it is frustrating sometimes you know particularly when he he's like why didn't we do this I'm like I don't know because you didn't do it you don't work here all the time and you

34:23

just have to and I I believe that introspection is and really that's EQ I guess is probably the most powerful tool in your tool belt to be able to say like you know what I am frustrated and here's why I'm frustrated and I know it's stupid that I'm frustrated but it doesn't mean I'm

34:39

any less frustrated because I know it's dumb to be so let's talk about it let's just get on the same page so I imagine being partnered with a therapist helps there you know but it is a struggle but it is so critical to to keep the relationship healthy yeah yeah and I

34:54

know like we we're part of a study group and and just some things are just so helpful when you when you just mention your problem to somebody else like Taylor and Kaylee or they run a firm down in down in southern Washington and they're part of our study group and and

35:08

I just mentioned this like oh yeah we had a discussion and I was I was feeling like I was feeling like I was doing most of the work and and they just listened patiently and then said well yeah because you're two different people like there's no such thing as an equitable

35:25

partnership between two people there's always going to be different levels of investment you know of everything that's just normal we're different people and I was like oh that's true so I'm curious Liz because you had mentioned earlier that you end up

35:42

working with a lot of I think recently divorced clients so is that sort of a niche you fell into or developed intentionally sort of where where did some of those folks come from that's a good question they're not they're not all recently divorced but you know I

35:56

think they've found me I don't know if it's because I'm female or I was realizing as I looked at at our website that it doesn't actually specifically say that's who my Niche is which I'd like to change actually but yeah I think it's something that I I have fallen into

36:13

actually they found me which I like it's what I wanted it's just I I don't know how it's happening I think I think Li I think you've been really good about processing this change for yourself like talking to the community as well and and so you know she said that most

36:30

of the people are coming from referrals Liz has been really active in the community and started nonprofits and stuff so so probably that word has it's a pretty natural word getting out thing for you yeah I think that's how it's happening and then and then

36:47

once I work with a few people like that they're telling their friends who are single women who are afraid to go talk to a planner because they don't know what to expect that I'm pretty approachable and not selling them anything and then they want to come and

37:00

see me yeah very very fair and and you know it is tough whenever you're going through some of those situations and you're not sure who to talk to not sure who to work with and and you know so much of this business is relationship it is personality driven it's both

37:14

expertise and and personality right in what's going to you know be the best fit so do do y'all ever have clients come in that are sort of there for the The Firm that that they show up and they're just like hey like I your fee only fiduciary financial adviser who who do I work with

37:31

like do y'all ever have those situations as opposed to them coming in Spec to work specifically with one of you yeah I would say for the most part that's what that's what we get we don't we we actually maybe 25% of people say that they specifically want to work with and

37:47

it's almost always specifically want to work with Liz nobody asks really I John the teacher fair enough so then we navigate it then we just have a phone call with them and we try to we try to figure out their needs that's been really difficult because it seems

38:08

like regardless of who speaks to the person to begin with that person becomes attached to who they spoke with at the first time so like I I talked to a woman she's very nice and I just thought the Liz would be a much better fit and I told her that and I told her why and

38:26

then it was a then it was a little bit of a hard transition we worked it out and I think it's it's worked okay but you know she sort of fit lizz's Liz's Niche like spoton and then other times Liz has talked to like uh I really enjoy working with couples and so she's talked

38:42

to some couples and she said no I think John might be the right person for you and um and we've gone that way yeah that's really interesting because I know a lot of firms you know the assistant in The Firm or or you know the receptionist or someone is actually

38:59

handles that first phone call and sort of you know directs people around so it's really interesting that you're finding folks you know it's sort of that initial relationship and and they're opening up to you about money maybe this the first time they've ever opened up to

39:10

anybody about money even if it's on a basic level you know with that initial phone call to sort of gauge where they're at and maybe that's sort of causing you know that that attachment of like hey I've already done this once please don't make me do it again with

39:21

someone else yeah I think that's probably pretty Savvy because I know we lost somebody because of that you know at least one person that I can think of that we tried to pass off and the pass off didn't go very well yeah I mean I I don't know if this is the best metaphor

39:36

but I always felt like when a client came in in that initial conversation they were just like undressing for their financial adviser financially like they are getting financially naked and they have never been financially naked before sometimes not even with their partner

39:51

who is in the room and it is awkward because they are talking about things they've never talked about before and so I could see that I don't know if that's this particular situation but you know for the advisers out there that are like what are you talking about you know this

40:03

sounds too woow woo like yeah it is woowoo and welcome to financial planning because we it's money and money's hard yeah and it's not an easy conversation no one wakes up in the morning like you know what I want to do today talk to a stranger about money that sounds

40:16

exciting no one does that so you know for them to call us takes a lot and I think we should honor the fact that they called us because it does takes so much now that being said you need to work with the clients you're best at serving and being able to hand them off between

40:29

the two of you is probably something that you'll develop over time but it is a tough you know this is money you know it's all it's all tough yeah I think so it's a good it's a good learning learning process for us for me yeah so trans or you know transitioning just a

40:46

little bit can you talk to me about your service model and we should probably take a step back because you are in the state of Washington I've made a couple cracks about it just because I knew we would get to it the state of Washington is not the fondest of non AUM models and

41:01

so we at XY have been battling quite a bit to try to get the the Washington Regulators on board with monthly subscriptions and just some of the new flat fee models that are out there and and I'm hoping the recent Schwab announcement that they're going to be

41:12

doing financial planning for $30 a month will help The Regulators realize that this is okay you know to offer financial planning on a subscription basis so I I say that to caveat just a little bit that your model you know based on our conversations has had to evolve a little

41:27

bit just because of the regulators and what they're looking for but that being said can you talk to me about your process we'll say you know fees as well as just service model for the initial financial planning relationship and and then we'll sort of you know look at

41:40

ongoing relationship as well sure yeah so we did have a retainer model last year or that we started out with and yeah in Washington state was not they had wanted nothing to do with that so we we pivoted to an a um model or a hourly financial planning

42:01

model and then what we just tell clients is that based upon their assets for my my number that I tell people is for every $100,000 that I manage that's worth three hours of planning time and then so there's a whole like bookkeeping operational thing that has to kind of

42:20

happen along with that but that is that's intended to catch the people that are kind of in the middle because people who don't want us to manage assets it's fairly easy you just do hourly it makes sense people who have a big account for us to manage assets you know in a

42:35

traditional advisory firm all of the planning work can be sort of captured under that advisory fee but we tend to have a lot of sort of tweener clients who you know have a have a small Ira that they might want to roll over or maybe not that's part of the

42:52

conversation and but that wouldn't that wouldn't really wouldn't our business wouldn't work if we just charged on AUM with those people so we have to do a mix of hourly and AUM so our overall P structure is 1% of assets up to 500,000 that's a half perc

43:11

above that and then we charge hourly like we're both doing the same $125 an hour okay and what was the model before what was the the subscription model option sort of pricing wise so we are going we were doing 150 a month yeah 150 a month and and I will let folks know

43:32

just because I know we just scared the pants off of them on oh no The Regulators hate retainers Washington is the only state that we have this struggle in right now and really what they want is they they are unwilling to let advisors charge for Access you can't

43:45

say oh it's $150 a month and call me when you need me they want to know what services you're going to provide and what services you did provide and it sort of all then ties back to the hourly rate and being sure that you're working quote unquote enough to earn your fee

43:59

again they have taken the the most extreme stance and it's one we're we're working with them on and some of the other some of the associations are actually going to be putting some efforts towards us as well but you know we do have to be adaptable and so how

44:11

how are you finding the conversation since now you've done retainer and now you're doing hourly how have you found those conversations to be similar and and and maybe different in terms of engaging you know clients for your financial planning Services well it's it's so I we I tend

44:28

to most of my clients are in their 40s and hourly financial planning makes sense to everybody I talk to it sounds like you're working with a contractor like you know here's time I get build for time that makes sense to be honest the retainer model was like I had a lot

44:46

of puzzled looks when I mentioned it to people in their 40s it was or maybe it was just a tougher sell from me being newer in the industry maybe I'm just comfortable with the contractor model I don't really I don't really know I I do like I've learned so much from listening to other

45:02

advisers speak through XY and lots of conversations and I recognize that the challenge with that with the hourly model is that people won't call and I know that that is going to be a challenge moving forward so I haven't had to deal with it I haven't I haven't

45:20

had to deal with that challenge yet of like people not calling and all of a sudden there's a big F that I have to put out right showing up when they have 30 questions instead of when they had you know one that you could have answered a lot more easily yeah so do you

45:36

anticipate that model changing at all or or you finding now that sort of settled into something that works with Regulators is it working for you and you feel good about it well everything's an evolution sorry I'm asking all the hard questions huh I I guess I think I mean it's a it's

45:53

it's a model that works and so it's kind of like when you break a leg when I've had a broken leg I don't worry about the fact that I can't run I worry about getting it fixed you know it's like that's the life you got to live so so it's a model that works right now we're

46:08

making we're making the best of it I'm just I just have to be really aware I feel like I have to be hyper aware now as a business owner to make sure that my time doesn't get spread out and that the business can still function because as a teacher like I

46:27

don't work on an hourly model I never have I work on you have a question I answer it you know and and I don't build you for that time and so we're both trying to figure out well how what does this exactly look like like I don't want to turn into I bill somebody for a

46:42

15minute conversation I think that's going to be a really gross business model and I hate I don't like the visibility on it so so that's where we've sort of landed on this well if people bring in some level of asset then a lot of those smaller conversations

46:58

kind of get wrapped up within that investment management fee and then if we do very purposeful work like hey somebody really wants a cash flow budgeting exercise that's when it's going to trigger into hourly that's kind of my my thinking on it right now but I I have lots of

47:18

questions for how the business is going to work yeah fair enough and that that was always my struggle that I ran into because I I started my business operating way you are now and and I always struggle with if an AUM client asks you a financial question like

47:32

you're not going to charge them for the six minutes it took to answer the question you know like you're just not gonna do it but then it's like oh but I'm not getting paid for this advice I'm only getting paid AUM so yeah the the the constant battles of fees and just

47:44

trying to figure out the best way and also you know the best way that The Regulators are are okay with yeah so working working under this fee model for last three months one one kind of nice benefit of it is it's forced me to really be very aware of my time which of

48:00

course is is a resource that needs to be managed well so I've been basically coming up out of 140 hours of sort of work time I've had about probably an average of 25 billable hours per month over the last three months which is run which is made about close to five4 to $5,000 in

48:23

Revenue per month and then then AUM is the other side of that Revenue piece so right now we're about 5050 on financial planning revenue and Investment Management revenue and the math just means that we need to manage more in Assets in order to make sure the business

48:45

works yeah makes sense so what are some of the the big projects that the two of you are going to be working on because obviously you got a big transition coming once you you know are in the business full-time which you've already been in the business full-time but you

48:57

have had a distraction that is taking your energy away and and Liz as you sort of are transitioning and working more hours in the financial planning business like what what are the big projects or the big things that that you see on the horizon for the next 12 to 24 months

49:11

that you're going to be working on so the the big one on my mind is is I kind of wantan to I want to I want to Circle back to where we started at the beginning which we made that partnership Charter and we set up the whole business we set up the website and everything

49:24

I've been reading the book track and even though we're not a a big organization I really want the two of us to sort of to revisit all what are our values what are our goals what what's our mission statement within this business I think we have a a big picture

49:41

that we need to hit through that one of the requirements that Washington wants to make sure that we do well is to create a sort of an employee compliance manual that describes how we do everything and that's a fairly ambitious task so I know XY has a nice template

49:57

that we've started working through but that's also going to be a piece of it so kind of kind of really establish Vision goals and how we operate do you see any challenges or I guess excitement around just having for both of you to be to have more time and energy in the the

50:14

planning practice and just some of the things that that will produce or is it slightly terrifying no I'm I'm really excited about having more time in in the financial plan to be able to work together and have some of these projects happen and then also to develop some

50:31

other products for people that we're working with too like doing doing cash flow analysis in a in a set way with different people who want that or or those kind of things to be able to dive into couple's work a little bit more or yeah so I think that's well said So

50:46

within that there are there are like there's almost like modules that we would love to to Really flesh out what does it look like to help somebody design a a cash flow in a budget we're doing the Steve Crawford course right now working through some of that and trying to come

51:02

up with our own system for that so that will be both challenging and rewarding if we can get it into a place where it's somewhat systematized because you know I've already mentioned how many hours I'm working like that's only with that's only with something like 20 ongoing

51:19

clients and roughly that number hourly clients I can see that I will become constrained unless we become pretty good at at setting up systems to to do a lot of the work so I think your original question was are there any challenges that we see from from going more

51:40

full-time into that I would say that's that's going to be a big challenge is how do we how do we create processes that are that are efficient that can that can scale across numerous people because both of us don't necessarily have a really specific well Liz works

51:56

with single women but still single women is incredibly Broad in terms of their issues maybe there's a similar emotional resonance but I would think that you'll encounter all kinds of different retirement plans and rollovers and risk strategies that you need to deal with

52:12

and I'm finding you know the same with with couples I I really enjoy working with couples and I like people who have sort of an emotional ring to wanting to deal with their finances but their issues are all over the map makes sense and sounds like if you're going to be in

52:27

the business even more focused list has to get that eraser warmed up I know that's how Michael feels every time I get a little more time he's like all right gotta get my no hat on wow that is an invaluable skill set to have is the ability to tell us entrepreneurs no so R it in just a

52:48

little bit so both of you have had really varied career paths that that really you know have all LED just sort of this point of really focusing on and going to be going full-fledged into the financial planning firm so I'll ask you both the final question John I'll start

53:04

with you and that is you know if there's one piece of advice one thing that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self one thing you wish you had known then that you know now what do you think that one piece of advice would be this is this is so crazy that I like I

53:19

have listen to every single podcast I knew this question was coming I've spent hours thinking about what I would say and I still don't have a good answer like my like my answer always comes down to things like oh well I would go back to myself and and you know make sure you

53:36

have fun I guess the the best one I can come up with is play the guitar more I kind of wish I'd play I could be a better guitar player at this point but but I guess I also think about that answer and think I'm I'm sort of settled by that answer because it like

53:54

it's a little bit like the George Kinder questions when somebody doesn't look back and say I wish I could change something or tell myself something in the past that maybe means that that the path you've been on is the one that you needed to go through and so would I go

54:08

back and tell myself to start a business earlier I don't think so like you know I had young kids and I love being a dad and I love my partner and I I like you know like all those things are really important to me so I'm not sure that I would have I would have done this

54:26

anytime sooner I guess maybe one thing is I would have told myself to check out financial planning a little bit earlier because I do the the field is is fascinating and I did FPA residency last year and that was that was an amazing experience that that really W won me

54:45

over to this whole career so I guess if I had if I had explored it earlier who knows what would have happened but since I like it now I probably would have liked it earlier yeah no that that makes perfect sense and and a good note about FPA residency we have xypn puts on an

55:01

FPA residency just for XY pin members I think we're nailing down the dates this year we did one last year but yet truly amazing experience of of learning how to do real Financial Planning and So for anybody who out who's out there who's who's wanting to see real financial

55:16

planning maybe haven't had the opportunity to work in a firm with a mentor that that you felt like was really able to show that to you consider FPA residency whether it's through FPA or if you're M through xypn you know very very similar coursework just different price point and cohort

55:30

basically yeah and I I felt like I I call it like the voice for financial planners like we were put on team you know Sabrina or or team Casey and and I had I had a lot of questions about this industry like like what's where's the human element in it and I I wanted to

55:47

make sure it was there that I would be able to look at myself in the mirror after doing the work for five years and like I just I came back completely enthralled I'm like wow this is a human field so can't say enough enough good things about it all right so Liz same

56:02

question to you now that you've had some time to think about it you know one thing you wish you had known or or you know could go back and tell your younger self what do you think that thing would be well I always have this thing that I say to my younger clients and when

56:15

they're feeling really anxious or afraid or making choices out of out of fear is that all is coming and so that's exactly what popped up when I thought of this is I would go back to my 20-year-old self and just say all is coming you don't need to make that choice because it's

56:30

all going to work out I love it that positive note to end on you could tell the pencil and the Eraser right like M my answer went on for like five minutes it is very clear the working relationship that you have and and you know and again I'm a huge

56:46

fan of of having a business partner for this exact reason is because it really does give you that offset that other that other personality in the room to be able to to give advice and be able to help us you know make the make the best decisions so fantastic well thank you

57:01

both so much for taking the time to come on the show share your wisdom and experience and what you've been working on and I look forward to hearing how the how the next year or two goes as you both continue to transition in and focusing on growing the business so

57:14

thank you so much for your time today thanks Alan appreciate itk you fun XY pn's can't miss annual conference returns to St Louis in September 2019 this event is jam-packed with valuable content for new firm launchers and established firm owners alike take a

57:31

much needed break from working in your business to work on your business and connect with like-minded advisers leading the financial planning movement go to XY planning network.com xypn live radio to grab your past today you do not want to miss this be sure to

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join our VIP community at XY planning network.com viip hang out with other xyp and radio listeners ask questions for future mailbag episodes with myself and kitus and to finally find a community of like-minded financial advisers thanks so much for joining me today we'll see you

58:02

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Featuring

Elizabeth Snyder, MS, LMHC, CFP®,RICP®

Trail Financial Planning

John Chesbrough, CFP®, RLP®, RICP®

Trail Financial Planning

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